Oh boy, lots to say! New Yorker here. Lived in Cali for a summer, but lifetime NYer otherwise.
I’ll make a few important distinctions to the NY pizza snobbery. I do agree it exists, and I partly subscribe to it. AND, New York is a big state and the geographic area that encompasses the GOOD, classic NY pizza is pretty small. If you drew a circle around the very most southern parts of the state, encompassing Long Island, NYC, and Westchester county ONLY up to Interstate 287 (this is about half of the suburban county just north of NYC), that is where you’ll find the very best pizza. But I’ll clarify further: the very best PIZZA-COUNTER pizza. I’m not referring to restaurant-style, just your basic pie with your basic array of toppings. You might be wondering how hard is it to get something wrong that has only a few ingredients?? Surprisingly easy. Try having pizza-counter pizza anywhere in the Midwest 😝.
For most of my life, I lived in the aforementioned circle of best pizza. I’ve traveled extensively in the U.S., been to Italy and a few other international places. Unequivocally, no one makes pizza-counter pizza like they do in that circle. About 18 years ago, my husband and I moved north of I-287 but still in Westchester County. The difference was DRAMATIC. Not a decent slice to be found. No good bagels either (same circle applies, though possibly extends into northern Jersey). It was like tumbleweed rolling through, set to that famous Western whistling. And that remains true to this day.
Amusingly, people who have lived in these parts their whole life go to battle on the NextDoor app about the best pizza places up here. Then I and a few other snobs chime in: “you’re all woefully misguided and you should try actually TRAVELING 30 MINUTES SOUTH OF HERE, you sheltered bumpkins.”
Okay, now for my caveats: I LOVE CPK pizza. I LOVED Pizzeria Uno pizza. I can tolerate most other pizza in faraway parts that aren’t trying to be pizza-counter pizza. To me, these pizzas fall into their own category. And they are delicious.
I don’t eat meat, but I have no problem with weird pizza toppings in theory. In elementary school, I used to put mustard on my cafeteria pizza. It definitely needed help, and there wasn’t much around with which to doctor it up.
I draw the ABSOLUTE FUCKING LINE though, Estrin, at CILANTRO. But that’s not specific to pizza. In my world, do not let that devil’s weed anywhere the fuck near me. And before you ask, I am not one of those people who thinks it tastes like soap. I think it tastes like ASS, and not the one of the person you love and whose hygiene you trust. I would far prefer if you shoved a bar of soap in my mouth. I hope I’ve been clear here: 👿 🌱
Amy, there’s a lot to this wonderful comment! But I have to ask about cilantro, if that’s OK? I’m not trying to push it. Honestly, if you don’t eat it, there’s more for me. But here’s my question: have you tried cilantro on Mexican food? Like, I can see how cilantro is a turn off on pizza. But it’s pretty integral to Mexican cuisine. You also find it in Thai and Indian dishes. Does your anti-cilantro policy have any exceptions?
I should also confess something. My father was one of those people who hated cilantro. He said it tasted like soap, but this was before the internet so I didn’t believe him because I’d never heard of anyone else who thought it tasted like soap. Whenever we went for Mexican food he’d say “no cilantro” in the guacamole, and that led to some serious guacamole wars as I got older.
I’ll tie in my earlier reference here: “you take the good, you take the bad...🎶” 😁
I love Thai, Indian, and Mexican food. They might in fact be my three faves. And usually, if the surrounding flavors are strong enough, I don’t taste the cilantro (happens most in Indian food - curry and turmeric are strong). But if I can taste it (salsa and guac are the two that come to mind - your dad was spot on and that exactly how I order any custom guac), the whole food item is spoiled for me. Ruined, I should say. So, in my world, it doesn’t belong on pizza in the same way antifreeze doesn’t.
Oh oh, while I have you - how do you put YouTube videos in your posts? Every time I try, I just get a gray screen that says Video is Unavailable and Click this Link to watch. Can you share your magic?
Hmm. You should be able to grab the videos url (either from the browser address field or the YouTube share button) and just paste it into Substack. Sometimes certain YouTube videos don’t appear because the video owner set their media rights to restrict views off of the YouTube platform, but I’m not sure if that’s the issue you’re running into. One good way to test is to click on one of the videos I shared here (we know those work) and try pasting the url into a Substack post. If it’s not the media rights issue, you should start a help ticket and also post about it on Notes. Feel free to tag me and I’ll boost the signal. Someone must know the answer.
update: your experiment worked. Copying and pasting your pizza video into a draft worked on my end. So then I went to YouTube and tried sharing a video I had wanted to share in my post today. But when I clicked Share and then Copy the link in YouTube, it didn't work. However, then I tried just copying and pasting the actual URL link from the top of the page and for some reason, then it worked. Strange, right? Anyway, so kind of you to loan me your brain power on this. Thank you!
No problem! That is strange about the difference in URLs. Something tells me that if you published that video with the workaround URL it might ultimately break.
Next time you're in the Financial District, maybe check out Grotto on New St (back of the buildings around 42 b'way... about a block down from NYSE) — the best honey mustard (and chicken, but easy to pick off) slice... though, that was about 10 years ago, and it turns out that when you don't work down there, there aren't many reasons to go back... so it might not even be there anymore.
EDIT: as of 2021, google maps shows it's still there
I completely agree with what you’re saying here, even though esoteric pizza often seems dubious to me. In general, I’d rather have a landscape driven by inventiveness, so that esoterica is a available whether I want it or not. Because in many areas, I want it, and in an area like pizza where I’m not sure I do, I like the idea that one day a wild-eyed fanatic enthusiast will convince me to cross the rubicon into the more esoteric world.
Is there a pizza topping that would entice you to cross this Rubicon? Also, I gotta say, for my talk about more esoteric pizza offerings, I often go pretty basic.
I’m sure there are plenty, actually, because it’s not so much that I’m not open to the esoterica on an individual basis-- it’s more that I’m skeptical about it as a trend, the same way I am about overpriced flavored coffee, beers and cocktails that taste like juice boxes, etc.
I think my attitude is that recent decades seem to have favored culinary/beverage trends based on never-ending parade of arbitrary new combinations. I like martinis, for example, and have zero tolerance for anything other than the basic classic recipe.
I am sure, though, that in an environment where my skepticism was met with an attitude of “sure, you’re right to be skeptical of the field, but try THIS!” -- I would be very open to that.
In short, my skepticism can pretty easily be beaten back by my gluttony.
I see what you mean. There’s often an attitude that comes with more esoteric food options that can be a turn off. I love to try new foods, but it really helps when the environment is welcoming. My advice: have one (or two) of those classic martinis and come on over to the wild pizza side.
That works for me. Except that my doctor has basically said no more martinis. So I’ll show up having opened my mind in some other way, in the mind-opening staging area.
Ideally the mind-opening staging area is a classy green room of some sort, but during times of great belt-tightening, it’s often just finding a comfortable spot behind the dumpster
BBQ Chicken Pizza: Hells to the Yes! And CPK's is particularly amazing. Thank you for shedding light on this important topic. As for NY pizza: nope, there's nothing special about it. Their bagels, yes. Their pizza, meh.
Christina, your take on New York carbs fascinates me. Most people are all in on New York carbs (pizza and bagels) or all out. But you split the difference. You are a peacemaker in the carb wars. We need your voice!
My research has revealed that people who don’t like cold pizza invariably went to commuter schools. Cold pizza is a taste developed in a dormitory where all you had was a mini-fridge.
I’ll admit that my research was extremely limited. I lived in a dorm and love cold pizza. My wife lived off campus and hates it. So probably my theory could benefit from a larger sample size.
" marshmallow and shrimp pesto pizza" Are you becoming a Pizza Dick.... of the Phillip K. kind?
Worst Pizza Chain was Pizza Pizza. Haven't chosen a best one. I would eat a robot pizza. So far I've only had the semi-robotic ones at Costco where machines squish the dough and spread the sauce. And as Chiristine Lavin sang, "Cold pizza for breakfast. Warm Coke to wash it down."
Former NY-er turned Californian (15 years and counting) and I will say - I do think there's something magical and unf*ckwitable about a slice of thin, NY-style pizza fresh out of the oven. The greasy cheese, the foldable crust, the obligatory dusting of oregano, parmesan cheese & red pepper flakes is a culinary DELIGHT. But best when it's hot and fresh (as I said), and not every pizza achieves this nirvana. (I'm a fan of Joe's on W4, tbh).
That said, CPK's BBQ chicken pizza is delish - with the caveat of those trash-a$$ red onions. All kinds of "artisanal" pizzas are amazing - there's a curry pizza place here in the East Bay that's ridiculous, and back in LA on Abbott Kinney, there was a spot called Abbott's pizza that had salad pizza. (The "new to LA" pizza snob in me was initially revolted, but it had this spicy Ceasar sauce that was practically drinkable that made it irresistible).
Funny enough, I remember when Pizza Hut had buffets (and the pizza was actually good). It was a once a month treat for my family and we LOVED the meat lover's with the traditional thick crust. Now, most of the national chains are trash (although I think it varies based on your neighborhood).
Ultimately, I think if you're a pizza fan you're a pizza fan ... you can find pies & slices of all kinds to try (and love). And I am so glad you brought this up!
Tameka, I’m so glad you spoke up for the NY slice! When done right (and Joe’s on W 4th does it right) it is unfuckwitable and magical. Is there anything better than a slice on the way home for the bar? I lived in Brooklyn for three years and I do miss the New York slice a lot. I haven’t had much pizza in the Bay area, but I’ve had that salad pizza at Abbots and it’s great!
You should wear a disguise, always! I’m not sure where to go in NYC. There used to be a place on Montague Street that did a lot of different kinds of pizza, but I don’t think it’s there anymore.
Oh wow maybe it's Monty's which is just around the corner! I'll check it out. Yeah, they'd for sure have something like BBQ chicken pizza if anyone did.
I just ordered a barbecue chicken from local joint here on , in honor of yr great post. Question: is it possible yr waiter Frank just made that up to get out of talking any more, to preserve his voice, which is his money maker?
Haha! Most actors have basic improv skills, so that’s entirely possible. But most actors waiting tables in LA are also happy to chat about their craft because there’s always a chance that’ll lead to a gig. Enjoy the bbq chicken pizza!
One of the best pizzas I ever had was in Barcelona, Spain. It was Serrano Ham on Mozzarella and with Lettuce (?!?) on a light pesto. The owner was from Naples and obviously knew what he was doing. However after eating that heavenly pizza I will fault no one else for their choice of favorite pizza toppings.
That Barcelona pizza sounds like a winner. And I don’t think lettuce is that strange. I’ve had plenty of pizzas with arugula, and they were all winners.
New Haven pizza snob here. We're even worse than the New Yorkers, somehow. But still, I'm not above ordering a barbecue chicken pie every once in a while. Oregano (cross out effect, VARIETY) is the spice of life.
I’m so glad a New Haven pizza snob jumped into the comments. Thank you! I went to Wesleyan, about 30 minutes north of New Haven. I’ve had the real deal in New Haven. It’s great! I’ve also gotta say that Connecticut has a lot to offer the pizza-loving world, but it get so little love. Thank you for doing your part to put the spotlight in New Haven pizza.
Oh boy, lots to say! New Yorker here. Lived in Cali for a summer, but lifetime NYer otherwise.
I’ll make a few important distinctions to the NY pizza snobbery. I do agree it exists, and I partly subscribe to it. AND, New York is a big state and the geographic area that encompasses the GOOD, classic NY pizza is pretty small. If you drew a circle around the very most southern parts of the state, encompassing Long Island, NYC, and Westchester county ONLY up to Interstate 287 (this is about half of the suburban county just north of NYC), that is where you’ll find the very best pizza. But I’ll clarify further: the very best PIZZA-COUNTER pizza. I’m not referring to restaurant-style, just your basic pie with your basic array of toppings. You might be wondering how hard is it to get something wrong that has only a few ingredients?? Surprisingly easy. Try having pizza-counter pizza anywhere in the Midwest 😝.
For most of my life, I lived in the aforementioned circle of best pizza. I’ve traveled extensively in the U.S., been to Italy and a few other international places. Unequivocally, no one makes pizza-counter pizza like they do in that circle. About 18 years ago, my husband and I moved north of I-287 but still in Westchester County. The difference was DRAMATIC. Not a decent slice to be found. No good bagels either (same circle applies, though possibly extends into northern Jersey). It was like tumbleweed rolling through, set to that famous Western whistling. And that remains true to this day.
Amusingly, people who have lived in these parts their whole life go to battle on the NextDoor app about the best pizza places up here. Then I and a few other snobs chime in: “you’re all woefully misguided and you should try actually TRAVELING 30 MINUTES SOUTH OF HERE, you sheltered bumpkins.”
Okay, now for my caveats: I LOVE CPK pizza. I LOVED Pizzeria Uno pizza. I can tolerate most other pizza in faraway parts that aren’t trying to be pizza-counter pizza. To me, these pizzas fall into their own category. And they are delicious.
I don’t eat meat, but I have no problem with weird pizza toppings in theory. In elementary school, I used to put mustard on my cafeteria pizza. It definitely needed help, and there wasn’t much around with which to doctor it up.
I draw the ABSOLUTE FUCKING LINE though, Estrin, at CILANTRO. But that’s not specific to pizza. In my world, do not let that devil’s weed anywhere the fuck near me. And before you ask, I am not one of those people who thinks it tastes like soap. I think it tastes like ASS, and not the one of the person you love and whose hygiene you trust. I would far prefer if you shoved a bar of soap in my mouth. I hope I’ve been clear here: 👿 🌱
Amy, there’s a lot to this wonderful comment! But I have to ask about cilantro, if that’s OK? I’m not trying to push it. Honestly, if you don’t eat it, there’s more for me. But here’s my question: have you tried cilantro on Mexican food? Like, I can see how cilantro is a turn off on pizza. But it’s pretty integral to Mexican cuisine. You also find it in Thai and Indian dishes. Does your anti-cilantro policy have any exceptions?
I should also confess something. My father was one of those people who hated cilantro. He said it tasted like soap, but this was before the internet so I didn’t believe him because I’d never heard of anyone else who thought it tasted like soap. Whenever we went for Mexican food he’d say “no cilantro” in the guacamole, and that led to some serious guacamole wars as I got older.
I’ll tie in my earlier reference here: “you take the good, you take the bad...🎶” 😁
I love Thai, Indian, and Mexican food. They might in fact be my three faves. And usually, if the surrounding flavors are strong enough, I don’t taste the cilantro (happens most in Indian food - curry and turmeric are strong). But if I can taste it (salsa and guac are the two that come to mind - your dad was spot on and that exactly how I order any custom guac), the whole food item is spoiled for me. Ruined, I should say. So, in my world, it doesn’t belong on pizza in the same way antifreeze doesn’t.
If only there had been a Facts of Life episode about cilantro being used at Edna’s Edibles.
Ha! That’s funny. Also laughing at how the meaning of Edibles has changed since then 😶🌫️
Very much so! Maybe the need to reboot that show. With Blair’s money and Jo’s street smarts, I think they’ve got what it takes to open a dispensary.
😂😎
Oh oh, while I have you - how do you put YouTube videos in your posts? Every time I try, I just get a gray screen that says Video is Unavailable and Click this Link to watch. Can you share your magic?
Hmm. You should be able to grab the videos url (either from the browser address field or the YouTube share button) and just paste it into Substack. Sometimes certain YouTube videos don’t appear because the video owner set their media rights to restrict views off of the YouTube platform, but I’m not sure if that’s the issue you’re running into. One good way to test is to click on one of the videos I shared here (we know those work) and try pasting the url into a Substack post. If it’s not the media rights issue, you should start a help ticket and also post about it on Notes. Feel free to tag me and I’ll boost the signal. Someone must know the answer.
update: your experiment worked. Copying and pasting your pizza video into a draft worked on my end. So then I went to YouTube and tried sharing a video I had wanted to share in my post today. But when I clicked Share and then Copy the link in YouTube, it didn't work. However, then I tried just copying and pasting the actual URL link from the top of the page and for some reason, then it worked. Strange, right? Anyway, so kind of you to loan me your brain power on this. Thank you!
No problem! That is strange about the difference in URLs. Something tells me that if you published that video with the workaround URL it might ultimately break.
Great ideas, I’ll do exactly that. Thanks!
"I used to put mustard on my cafeteria pizza"
Next time you're in the Financial District, maybe check out Grotto on New St (back of the buildings around 42 b'way... about a block down from NYSE) — the best honey mustard (and chicken, but easy to pick off) slice... though, that was about 10 years ago, and it turns out that when you don't work down there, there aren't many reasons to go back... so it might not even be there anymore.
EDIT: as of 2021, google maps shows it's still there
I worked down there from 1997-2002, and you’re right. I’ve had no occasion to go back. But I love this hyper-specific find!
I'm a born and raised New Yorker and I think both Hawaiian pizza and BBQ Chicken pizza are delicious. THERE'S NO BAD PIZZA!
You are living right, Chris!
I completely agree with what you’re saying here, even though esoteric pizza often seems dubious to me. In general, I’d rather have a landscape driven by inventiveness, so that esoterica is a available whether I want it or not. Because in many areas, I want it, and in an area like pizza where I’m not sure I do, I like the idea that one day a wild-eyed fanatic enthusiast will convince me to cross the rubicon into the more esoteric world.
Is there a pizza topping that would entice you to cross this Rubicon? Also, I gotta say, for my talk about more esoteric pizza offerings, I often go pretty basic.
I’m sure there are plenty, actually, because it’s not so much that I’m not open to the esoterica on an individual basis-- it’s more that I’m skeptical about it as a trend, the same way I am about overpriced flavored coffee, beers and cocktails that taste like juice boxes, etc.
I think my attitude is that recent decades seem to have favored culinary/beverage trends based on never-ending parade of arbitrary new combinations. I like martinis, for example, and have zero tolerance for anything other than the basic classic recipe.
I am sure, though, that in an environment where my skepticism was met with an attitude of “sure, you’re right to be skeptical of the field, but try THIS!” -- I would be very open to that.
In short, my skepticism can pretty easily be beaten back by my gluttony.
I see what you mean. There’s often an attitude that comes with more esoteric food options that can be a turn off. I love to try new foods, but it really helps when the environment is welcoming. My advice: have one (or two) of those classic martinis and come on over to the wild pizza side.
That works for me. Except that my doctor has basically said no more martinis. So I’ll show up having opened my mind in some other way, in the mind-opening staging area.
The mind opening staging area is a beautiful concept.
Ideally the mind-opening staging area is a classy green room of some sort, but during times of great belt-tightening, it’s often just finding a comfortable spot behind the dumpster
BBQ Chicken Pizza: Hells to the Yes! And CPK's is particularly amazing. Thank you for shedding light on this important topic. As for NY pizza: nope, there's nothing special about it. Their bagels, yes. Their pizza, meh.
Christina, your take on New York carbs fascinates me. Most people are all in on New York carbs (pizza and bagels) or all out. But you split the difference. You are a peacemaker in the carb wars. We need your voice!
My research has revealed that people who don’t like cold pizza invariably went to commuter schools. Cold pizza is a taste developed in a dormitory where all you had was a mini-fridge.
Oh, BBQ Chicken Pizza?👍Love it.
Interesting take! I lived in a dorm for three years in college, but my taste for cold pizza dates back to childhood.
I never lived in a dorm and I love cold pizza. Well, room temperature pizza anyway.
Not true in my case. I lived in a dorm but I don’t like cold pizza. I just ate it all while it was hot 🤦🏼♀️
I’ll admit that my research was extremely limited. I lived in a dorm and love cold pizza. My wife lived off campus and hates it. So probably my theory could benefit from a larger sample size.
It’s still a solid theory. More research is needed.
If that research involves eating more pizza, I’m in.🍕🍕
Your grant has been approved. Go forth and order pizza for “research.”
I'm lactose intolerant, so "real" pizza is a no-no. I, however, very much enjoy Daiya pizzas and Amy's Vegan Margarita.
I've had some really good vegan pizzas. Alternatives cheese has a come a long way.
There are no rules, when it comes to pizza. Fact.
You are wise, Bryan.
" marshmallow and shrimp pesto pizza" Are you becoming a Pizza Dick.... of the Phillip K. kind?
Worst Pizza Chain was Pizza Pizza. Haven't chosen a best one. I would eat a robot pizza. So far I've only had the semi-robotic ones at Costco where machines squish the dough and spread the sauce. And as Chiristine Lavin sang, "Cold pizza for breakfast. Warm Coke to wash it down."
Marshmallow and shrimp pesto pizza is a total (Phillip K) Dick move.
Former NY-er turned Californian (15 years and counting) and I will say - I do think there's something magical and unf*ckwitable about a slice of thin, NY-style pizza fresh out of the oven. The greasy cheese, the foldable crust, the obligatory dusting of oregano, parmesan cheese & red pepper flakes is a culinary DELIGHT. But best when it's hot and fresh (as I said), and not every pizza achieves this nirvana. (I'm a fan of Joe's on W4, tbh).
That said, CPK's BBQ chicken pizza is delish - with the caveat of those trash-a$$ red onions. All kinds of "artisanal" pizzas are amazing - there's a curry pizza place here in the East Bay that's ridiculous, and back in LA on Abbott Kinney, there was a spot called Abbott's pizza that had salad pizza. (The "new to LA" pizza snob in me was initially revolted, but it had this spicy Ceasar sauce that was practically drinkable that made it irresistible).
Funny enough, I remember when Pizza Hut had buffets (and the pizza was actually good). It was a once a month treat for my family and we LOVED the meat lover's with the traditional thick crust. Now, most of the national chains are trash (although I think it varies based on your neighborhood).
Ultimately, I think if you're a pizza fan you're a pizza fan ... you can find pies & slices of all kinds to try (and love). And I am so glad you brought this up!
Tameka, I’m so glad you spoke up for the NY slice! When done right (and Joe’s on W 4th does it right) it is unfuckwitable and magical. Is there anything better than a slice on the way home for the bar? I lived in Brooklyn for three years and I do miss the New York slice a lot. I haven’t had much pizza in the Bay area, but I’ve had that salad pizza at Abbots and it’s great!
I don’t get the hate for BBQ chicken pizza. It’s enjoyable, even if it’s not one of my go-tos. Kind of like.... pineapple on pizza...
It’s tribalism. If I can’t hate your pizza, how do I really know that my pizza is the best?
I’ve never had bbq chicken pizza! Can you recommend a good spot in NYC? Also, should I go in disguise so I don’t get beat up?
You should wear a disguise, always! I’m not sure where to go in NYC. There used to be a place on Montague Street that did a lot of different kinds of pizza, but I don’t think it’s there anymore.
Oh wow maybe it's Monty's which is just around the corner! I'll check it out. Yeah, they'd for sure have something like BBQ chicken pizza if anyone did.
Yes! It is Monty's! That's exactly where I went when I wanted something a little more... California.
I'll try it out and report back!
I just ordered a barbecue chicken from local joint here on , in honor of yr great post. Question: is it possible yr waiter Frank just made that up to get out of talking any more, to preserve his voice, which is his money maker?
Haha! Most actors have basic improv skills, so that’s entirely possible. But most actors waiting tables in LA are also happy to chat about their craft because there’s always a chance that’ll lead to a gig. Enjoy the bbq chicken pizza!
Enjoy your work! Do not enjoy BBQ chicken pizza.
Thank you, Teri! And I guess that just means more bbq chicken pizza for me.
One of the best pizzas I ever had was in Barcelona, Spain. It was Serrano Ham on Mozzarella and with Lettuce (?!?) on a light pesto. The owner was from Naples and obviously knew what he was doing. However after eating that heavenly pizza I will fault no one else for their choice of favorite pizza toppings.
That Barcelona pizza sounds like a winner. And I don’t think lettuce is that strange. I’ve had plenty of pizzas with arugula, and they were all winners.
As a native Chicagoan, I am a certified deep-dish pizza snob. But, I have to admit that CPK’s BBQ Chicken pizza is good stuff. Nice piece!
I like deep dish pizza, but I need a spotter. That stuff is heavy. Who has the best deep dish in Chicago?
I’m partial to Giordano’s, but Uno’s, Gino’s and Lou Malnati’s also offer up fine pies,
New Haven pizza snob here. We're even worse than the New Yorkers, somehow. But still, I'm not above ordering a barbecue chicken pie every once in a while. Oregano (cross out effect, VARIETY) is the spice of life.
I’m so glad a New Haven pizza snob jumped into the comments. Thank you! I went to Wesleyan, about 30 minutes north of New Haven. I’ve had the real deal in New Haven. It’s great! I’ve also gotta say that Connecticut has a lot to offer the pizza-loving world, but it get so little love. Thank you for doing your part to put the spotlight in New Haven pizza.